I came across a very interesting article on the Indianapolis Star, the newspaper from my hometown. It appears that a national gay advocacy group, Faith in America, leased space on 22 billboards around Indianapolis last week to spread messages like “Jesus affirmed a gay couple” and “Jesus said some people are born gay.” Unfortunately, this is a true story, there is no making this stuff up.
If you look at the picture, you see Matthew 8:5-13 quoted as the place where Jesus affirmed a gay couple. Below you can read exactly what Matthew 8:5-13 says.
The Faith of a Centurion
5 When he entered Capernaum, a centurion came forward to him, appealing to him, 6 “Lord, my servant is lying paralyzed at home, suffering terribly.” 7 And he said to him, “I will come and heal him.” 8 But
the centurion replied, “Lord, I am not worthy to have you come under my
roof, but only say the word, and my servant will be healed. 9 For
I too am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. And I say to
one, ‘Go,’ and he goes, and to another, ‘Come,’ and he comes, and to my
servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.” 10 When Jesus heard this, he marveled and said to those who followed him, “Truly, I tell you, with no one in Israel have I found such faith. 11 I tell you, many will come from east and west and recline at table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven, 12 while
the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness. In that
place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” 13 And to the centurion Jesus said, “Go; let it be done for you as you have believed.” And the servant was healed at that very moment.
Maybe I’m missing something here, but I don’t see anywhere in the text that says Jesus affirmed a gay couple. I don’t even see anywhere in the text where it says what the sexual orientation of the centurion or his servants is. It sounds like the Jesus Metropolitan Community Church, the sponsors of the billboard campaign, is trying to take Scripture and twist it into what it wants Scripture to say.
You can’t read the scriptures in English to get that connotation. The English translation removed all “slave holding” words from the original Greek. The word the centurian uses to describe the sick person is “pais” which could mean his son, a regular slave, or a special male sex slave. Clearly, this was not a regular slave, nor his son, which leaves one conclusion.
“Clearly, this was not a regular slave”
Why not?
Tom, I think you need to ask John for a clear answer. I don’t know what he’s thinking, so I can’t give you his answer.
pais is not the greek work for slave, doulos is. Luke calls the sick person a doulos, but an “honored” or special one. Luke’s use of the word for honored or special would make one think it is not a regular slave. Again, one would need to read the Gospels in the original Greek to come to this conclusion.
Rev. Tucher,
I agree wholeheartedly with your statement. This church is twisting the Word of God to appeal to as many people as they can. There is nothing in this verse or anywhere in the Bible that would indicate that Jesus affirms a homosexual lifestyle. This church doesn’t want to have to tell people what they are doing is wrong. So instead of upholding the Word, they twist it to avoid confrontation. I strongly believe that Jesus loves all sinners, but the fact remains: homosexuality is a sin. (See Leviticus 20:13, 1 Corinthians 6:18)
P.S. I’ve heard some people argue that the laws of the old testament were fulfilled by Jesus’ sacrifice, but actually it was the appeasement that the Israelites were required to make (sacrifice, cleanliness, food) that was satisfied. I’m more than happy to receive comments, and would like to discuss this further. Please feel free to respond!
Oh, and that’s supposed to be 1 Corinthians 6:18.
Noah, it is true that Christ’s sacrifice was the ultimate sacrifice. It fulfilled all sacrifices in the Old Testament, as Christ came to fulfill the Law in our place.
Whether it is this or the other way does it really matter?
Everyone will have their own conviction, and their own ideas of what Bible really says and what Bible really is.
As an atheist I am always surprised at people taking things like Bible literally, and letting, what for me is ancient literature, deterine how they live their lives, what they thing is wrong or right.
What seems importaint I think, is that people have good will. When you think someone is doing things that aren’t right, but you can still respect them as a human being with same rights and free will then everything is fine.
But when people start to hate others, and use “God’s words” to incite hatred, violence and discrimmination, that is where Bible understanding gets twisted.
In my opinion even if there is God, we cannot know what they really think.
Pawel, thank you for the comment. Understand that all the comments that I am makin gare coming from a Christian perspective.
The Bible is not “ancient literature,” it is the Word of God. Scripture clearly states what is allowed and not allowed by God. Things such as homosexuality is clearly condemned by God. Murder is clearly condemned by God. There is nothing wrong with showing goodwill towards others. However, when God’s Word says something is wrong, then goodwill will have to to take a backseat to Scripture.
I’m far from being an expert on Bible (especially that there are so many versions and translations, which to choose?).. I did receive some Catholic education it’s now mostly forgotten.
My understanding is, however, that there is no unviversal agreement within Christiandom on homosexuality (nor murder for that matter).
Some Churches regard homosexuality as somethng ok, for instance large parts of the Church of England, and other protestant Churches.
If there is a disagreement on what is “God’s Word” on that matter, it can’t be all that clear.
I think you are speaking from your perspective, and through your understanding of Bible. Rather then from a Christian perspective. Is there anything as a consistent Christian perspective?
God also said that thou shalt not do unto others as you wouldn’t like to be done unto you. This, I understand, is said more explicitly than any concemnation of homosexual love or passion. Therefore even if someone is gay, people shouldn’t treat them as they wouldn’t like to be treated themselves. Would you agree?
I also can’t get over your likening homosexual desire to murder. You will admit that was a bit over the board…
Pawel, I will agree with you: some churches regard homosexuality as ok. However, if you truly accept everything in Scripture as the true Word of God, you must accept the fact that homosexuality is contrary to the Word of God. The reason why some churches allow it is because they do not see all of God’s Word as pertaining to today. Some say that Scripture does not apply today because it was written 2000 years ago and applied to then; Scripture is no longer relevant to today.
The point I was making between homosexuality and murder is that both are condemned in Scripture, both are contrary to the Word of God. Both are sinful according to God. People like to rank sins, with one not being as bad as another. However, that is not how God regards sin. Sin is sin is sin. There is no difference in sin.
If you would like to discuss this further, I look forward to it.
Actually I googled the name of your Church in Internet.. and things begun to become clear for me. You know there are many protestant Churches, and all of them that I have ever come across until now were more liberal than the dominant Catholic Church in my country (which, in fact, is divided into fractions and flavours, some of them liberal). Catholic Church in The Netherlands is not the same Church as the Catholic Church in Poland or the USA.
And of course there is always the official Church and the people. And people tend to have very different views then the official view of their Church.
Does this article correctly sum the mainstream views in your Church? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lutheran_Church_-_Missouri_Synod I don’t know if you have time for this, but would you mind explainig plainly what are the main differences between your Church and Catholic Church (with which I am most fmiliar)? In terms of beliefs and practice.
If it does, I would like to chat about this or that. I have never met anyone of similar viewpoint, only read about (I will use label here, for which I apologise) “conservative American Churches” in the papers (and in Dawkins’s book), and I would like to understand…
I don’t know how honest can you be in an Internet blog. You are representative of your Church, and therefore you are predisposed to represent its point of view even when you don’t fully agree. To be a good example for your congregation and to be loyal. On the other hand, you might refrain from saying something harsh which you think, but again, you’re here an official representative with your full name etc.
What I read in this Wikipedia entry, is a very decisive ideology.
I think it wouldn’t make sense to discuss religious ideas, as you would defend your way of seeing things, and I would defend mine. In the end of the day we both have the right to think whatever we want, and do whatever we want unless it doesn’ brake the law nor harm anyone.
It would be more interesting to learn more about you and find a common ground.
Question that comes to my mind first, is do you ever doubt whether you have chosen right? Whether the Scripture is indeed the word of God? Whether there is God? Whether you have devoted your life to the right thing?
I call myself an atheist, as I don’t have the belief in God in me, and I was disappointed with religion. But I don’t KNOW. There is a possibility that God exists, no one can rule it out. Do you ever wonder about whether your idea of what is God is right? and the idea about what God wants is right? Do you ever doubt the Bible as the source of God’s will?
Do you personally think evolution theory is not true?
What do you think is the most important thing in the world?
Following our previous discussion on sin. You think God, through his Scripture, regards homosexual desire as sin. What is the right approach to sin then? Does the Scripture provide, in your opinion, appropriate solution that should be applied? Note that I am asking you here, not the official Church.
I would only like to make one comment. You write as if you KNEW what God thought. You said for instance “That is not how God regards sin”. This is not something you can prove. Since the existance of God itself cannot be proven. You BELIEVE this is wat God thinks and wants. But that of course applies to every religion. Well… besides Buddhism and Falun Gong, since there is no such entity as God there.
I don’t think we can attain the ability to read God’s mind at will. He even said as much — that his ways are higher than our ways, and, that he is holy — the most ancient word for holiness denotes otherness. We do not have that power to pry into God’s mind.
However, I do believe, wholeheartedly, that God has infinite power to pry into our minds, to know our thoughts, even better than we know ourselves. And, to be able to express himself to us in a way that, assisted by him, we can understand, and that he is capable of preserving his Holy Word despite the caretakers. This is found in 1st Corinthians 1:18 — that the message that we find power in, is utter foolishness to those who are perishing.
Some say that the fact we have no original manuscripts to the Bible is a serious detriment to its authority. But the opposite is true. To the ex-Catholic atheist: Did you know that there is one single word in the Bible, that if merely its stance were changed, would grant the Pope exceeding power and authority? It is where Jesus says to Peter, that he is a rock, and “upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it.” Jesus happened to be standing in Cesaerea Phillipi when he said that, site where a large pagan temple carved into a mountain was built, honoring Baalzeboul, whom Jesus named as the Devil. He is their god for the underworld and fertility — and this temple was significant to them in that streams of water would seasonally flow from a large cave there, where niches to Baal and Pan were built and are still built (but empty, and a 1800s earthquake sealed the streams). That second word for “rock,” there, is not Peter, but Petra, the female stance for the word and the same word used to describe the stone that sealed Jesus’ tomb.
Yet the Catholic Church was the keeper of the Bible for centuries. How could this be? Unless, of course, God’s hand was in its preservation — of every word.
Did you know, that the 2300-year-old Dead Sea Scrolls, containing the entire book of Isaiah and parts of every other book in the Canan except for one, are exactly what we have as far as earliest translation? A Hebrew-speaking person can go see the scrolls (only 10 allowed to see at a time, or more when the scrolls are traveling around to various cities), and if he brings his copy of Isaiah, which is a very, very Messianic book in the Torah, he can close his Bible and read about the coming of the Messiah as written 300 years before the Messiah came, in the scrolls in his own language? English and other languages change — that’s why there are so many translations, because the languages change — but Latin and Hebrew, they do not change so much, or at all when it comes to Scripture. Anyone can read these scrolls who knows modern Hebrew.
God said that all things come together for the good of his children who believe. In this way, then, every atheist and every pagan that exhibits doubt in the validity of the word of God as recorded in the Bible, because of 1st Corinthians 1:18, their testimony against God is proportionate to how much they proclaim God without even knowing it, to us. Because we know God Is, so very well and so clearly and we know that he has spoken to man because he has that power to, and runs the entire world, and cares about every little thing — because we know this so well, the stronger the opposition we face, the stronger our faith grows.
This is true in every country that has every persecuted Christians, yesterday, today, and tomorrow. They simply cannot stop real faith, and the more they try, the faster the true church grows.
You want to know who the true church is, what they are like? They are the ones that grow when persecution comes, the speed of the growth proportionate to the severity of the persecution. Jesus said this, but he didn’t have to — it’s obvious enough.
God loves you. Come to him while there is still time.
-EW, an ex-homosexual, ex-atheist leader, ex-pyromaniac
I think John is missing the fact that the sick person is beloved. A normal slave can be beloved though it was not the norm for Roman Centurions. But what also wasn’t the norm for Roman Centurions, was coming to Jesus. Other Centurions would have had slaves of all kinds, but Judea was in a state of tension with the Roman government at the time, and they would have not necessarily risked their lives coming to see Jesus, on account of the Zealots. Even one of the twelve was a Zealot.
And Jesus points out that this particular Centurion was exceptional in faith even by Jewish standards. In fact he was superior, since Jesus would have known the hearts of all the Jews simultaneously. We can’t say, therefore, that this Centurion was referring to a sex slave on account the slave was beloved, because the normal logic for Centurions, many of whom had sex slaves of either gender, doesn’t apply here. This case was special, and this Centurion was also special. He likely actually did have compassion for his normal slaves, which would be a Christ-like reaction. Given that Christ himself is affirming a true-Jewish faith in this Centurion, and at superior levels, it’s an easy jump to the logic that he must love his slave as he loves himself, if not moreso, and would die, or risk death, for that slave.
-EW, a Messianic Jew
Given more thought on the Centurion and Luke’s account of the matter, we can then state that like us with Chriust, the honor or special status of the slave of the Centurion, isn’t due to anything the slave does, but rather is the product of the slave merely belonging to the Centurion.
Centurion and Luke
Rev Tucher,
I find it funny, and actually quite hypocritical that you say that that this group is twisting the scriptures for their own benefit, when most Christians interperet the Bible in their own way anyway.
I don’t think everything in the Good Book should be applied in the world we live in today.
So called Christians use quotes from the Bible as a weapon, and will quote certain passages, especially in the Book of Leviticus- but they ignore passages that tell them not to judge.
They forget to take the ‘log’ out of their own eyes before they remove the ‘speck’ from their brothers. They forget to judge, lest ye not be judged.
There are contradictions found within the Bible. As referred to the above, Book of Leviticus that contains texts that prohibit a man lying with another man, however that same book tells us that trimming our hair, being in contact with a woman during her period, eating shellfish and even wearing clothing of two different kinds of thread (say polyester/cotton blend) is sinful. It also tells us that slavery is acceptable.
These sins written within the same book are never questioned among so called Christians who at the same time will do whatever they can to ensure that two men and two women don’t form a loving relationship with each other.
They should recognize that the Bible was not written by God himself, but by the people who worshipped him, and they were bound to be imperfect beings(because who is perfect but God himself) which means they were a product of their culture and times, and they were also bound to make a few ‘human mistakes’.
The main message of the Bible was Gods desire to love our neighbour. Hatered and judgement of your fellow brothers and sisters is NOT a Christian act.
Anyway if we are going to dismiss the Centurions love for his servant/slave, what about David and Daniel’s love, or Ruth and Naomi’s ‘cleaving’?
God is omnipotent- He made each and every one of us (are you saying he made a mistake?). It is up to him and him alone to judge gay people. Most of the gay people I know are extremely spiritual, caring, honest, kind and ethical people- in fact some of my closest friends who are gay are more ‘Christian spirited’ than many Christians from my Church (not that Its my place to judge any of them)
My religion is kindness, how about you?
AW xx
Annabel, allow me to comment on a couple of things that you wrote.
AW: “I don’t think everything in the Good Book should be applied in the world we live in today.”
Me: If that is true, do we throw out the 5th Commandment, “You shall not murder” or the 7th Commandment, “You shall not steal” because they shouldn’t be applied in the world we live in today? Those are just two examples. They may be extreme examples, but they are valid examples.
AW: “They should recognize that the Bible was not written by God himself, but by the people who worshipped him, and they were bound to be imperfect beings(because who is perfect but God himself) which means they were a product of their culture and times, and they were also bound to make a few ‘human mistakes’.”
Me: I will concede on your point, partially. Yes, men are the ones who actually put the words of the Bible on paper, but it was God, through the Holy Spirit, who told them what to write. “All Scripture is God-breathed.” God is the ultimate author of the Bible, with books attributed to men.
AW: “The main message of the Bible was Gods desire to love our neighbour. Hatered and judgement of your fellow brothers and sisters is NOT a Christian act.”
Me: Is that THE main message of the Bible? I guess Jesus’ life, death, and resurrection, for the sins of the entire world, is only a secondary message. Love your neighbor, or sins forgiven: I think I’ll take the latter as the message of the Bible.
AW: “Most of the gay people I know are extremely spiritual, caring, honest, kind and ethical people- in fact some of my closest friends who are gay are more ‘Christian spirited’ than many Christians from my Church…”
Me: Did I call into question their character? I did not say that they are not “spiritual, caring, honest, kind and ethical people.” What I am saying is that they are living in an open sin which is condemned by God. Does it mean that they are any less honest or kind? Of course not! That would be the same as saying that someone who has brown hair isn’t as spiritual as someone with black hair. That’s a very weak argument set up.
AW: “My religion is kindness, how about you?”
Me: My religion is one that accepts Scripture as the Word of God. I speak the truth in love, just as Scripture says. Where sin is apparent, it needs to be pointed out, in love. We should not go on sinning just because it may be accepted by the world’s views. If that is the case, then we don’t need God, because everything will be left up to the individual to determine if the Word of God applies to today or not.
I look forward to discussing this with you more if you so desire.
+ Rev. Tucher +
Maybe I don’t get it. I mean, studying this stuff for the past 8 years, maybe I’ve been wasting my time.
Why? I can’t figure out how in the world anyone can take the Koine Greek word “pais” (that means “boy”) and extrapolate out from that word a meaning of “my gay lover.”
I don’t get it.
Maybe I wasted all that money in tuition, books, and the like when I could have just made it up as I went along.
Honestly, the word for boy in this context shows that this slave was young. Yes, young children were slaves too. To express the importance in this Matthew passage, the centurion was showing his care for this young boy; nowhere can anyone pull from this passage that this was the centurion’s lover.
That is, unless, one wants to misuse the Word of God for personal or cultural reasons.
If God’s Word is to remain God’s Word, God has to remain at the center, not some human idea as to what God would think or do in these modern times. God’s church cannot be a church if we go around making things up, no matter how good it will make us feel.
God’s word condemns sin – all sin. It does not sugarcoat sin just to make us feel good or less bad when we break his Law. To do things – anything – against God’s own and infallible word is sin. We can’t change God’s definition of sin to make us feel “less sinful.” If we do, the the blessedness that comes from and shines from the Gospel is worthless.
Dear Rev Toucher,
Thankyou for your reply,You are right my point that the Bibles main message was to love thy neighbour- of course the main message IS God and Jesus love for us ALL of us, and the ultimate sacrifices made for our sins, but shouldn’t we use Jesus’s unconditional love for us as an example? He didn’t Judge, he just loved us.
You very cleverly brought up the fact that if we pick and choose what commandments we like, there will be chaos- But the Ten Commandments are our basic rules for living in a civilized society- I think we can safely say that they get the thumbs up from everyione. (they don’t mention homosexuality though do they?)
My point is that the scriptures while being a fantastic spiritual guide, do contradict and are perhaps sometimes outdated-( shellfish, polycotton blend?)- do YOU wear a polycotton blend, because I really hope you follow the word of God to the letter, and don’t commit such a sin!! Are you telling me that you think slavery is a good thing, because Jesus and God don’t seem to mind that it went on.
I know these are petty point scoring, but what makes me sad it the fact that mortal men arrogantly claims to know Gods great plan for every person, and feels the need to Judge so harshly. I know that you wouldn’t be physically violent towards another person, but the interpretation of the teachings you preach does trigger violence in others.
In my ‘weak’ argument about my friends character, you were saying they were sinners, even though they were ethical and kind- which puzzels me- they are either sinners, or they are not- being kind and ethical to me means that they are decent people with good hearts, to call them sinners seems so silly- God made them did he not? God loves them, does he not?, and looking at them, I actually have to say they seem to be blessed by God-They are amazing people, spiritually healthy,Physically happy and healthy, loving families, steady income,many many dear friends. I’m not sure that It is your place to judge them when God obviously thinks they are worthy of his love. And as I said before It is up to him and him alone to judge gay people- when they finally meet him. It really is no one elses business.
I just think there are so many more issues that need our attention and prayers- women and children being abused all over the world, the poverty, the rapes, the murders,the sad shape of our environment, corporate greed (what does the bible say about greed eh? There is more condemnation in the Good book about greed than homosexuality). It just seems to me that condemming someone for who they love seems so petty and mean.
Just to end on an amusing note about interpretations of the scriptures, what if Celibate was missread, and it was actually Celebrate!!
God is love
AW
I belive that word of God is unified, in this aspect, that the Holy Spirit is the bringer of Revelation to the Word. If God is Holy and His Spirit is Holy he would use One with a clean temple, one who had great faith. The Centerion is this example of great faith and because of this Jesus healed his servant. When Jesus did this he delivered his servant of the Spirit of Infirmity. However Jesus does not leave his work unfinished, he completes it to perfection. The servant was delivered of it all. Jesus did say go your on way, as you believed; but how can someone be the same when the Lord does a miracle for you. Let me ask you a Question if you are delivered from that evil, disguisting spirit would you go back? Certainly Not! It would be a foolish mistake to go back, you would be like the dog returning to his vomit. I only have this to Say if you are not filled with the Holy Spirit, what Spirit is using you?
God bless you & Be Ready for the Lord is Coming sooner Than you Think…
Translation is all about context and the word pais call only be read as “gay partner” is you thing Jesus would have approved of MANBLA (man-boy love association). Incidentally, I think polygamy and child sex are the next stop on the free love train that the “gay rights” movement is riding. Also, to read a “gay” approval into the text would mean that Jesus would be contradicting the Jewish Moral law, which He said He did not come to change. The boy heals was closer to what we would call a ward of the centurion. With even the even suggestion of this bizarre reading, I recall Satan’s word, “did God really say….”. I can hear the serpent hiss!
To love is not meant to condone sin. Judge others harshly you’ll find yourself in a similar mess. The word of GOD is to be taken at face value therefore, it means exactly what it says. The HOLY SPIRIT may deepen a passage or enlighten the application to various circumstance however,it won’t change the meaning. Especially to legalize sin. This goes against HIS very nature. If you aren’t lifting somone out of a sinful situation, one shouldn’t judge. Love them without condoning the sin. Having been a huge hypocrite myself,only the LORD could change me. The Church is filled with hypocrites always has been. Fortunatly for me I learned from my disobedience the hard way. Never the less though the knocks have been hard. If this is what it took for me to change. It is well worth the suffering. So I ask my brotheren for forgivness and strive to attain obedience. JESUS said,if you love ME you’ll keep my statues. I came to realize its all CHRIST and none of me. Though not simple or always easy. CHRIST living inside of us by the HOLY SPIRIT is the only way. Build and maintain a clean heart require’s you as Paul said I beat myself into submission and JESUS does the rest.